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thebibliosphere:
caledoniaseries:
thebibliosphere:
Hey gang, for those of you who reached out wanting to know more about the Scottish historian who did the deep dive into how Scottish identity got co-opted by the KKK and why a lot of things like “Scottish Pride” days are actually racist rallies in the USA, the name of the full documentary is “Who Put The Klan Into Ku Klux Klan” with Neil Oliver.
If you’ve got Amazon Prime it’s available on Prime Video. It’s also available to rent on YT for what looks like $1.99, though I am sure those of you who are more resourceful than I am might be able to find it elsewhere for the low low price of free.
Fair warning, it does deal with the events of the Charleston church shooting, and Neil also talks with some members of the church which is quite an emotional and heartbreaking moment. It also contains imagery featuring the KKK which can be disturbing. There is absolutely zero glorification of the Klan or anyone associated with them, past or present and any sort of “oh but the Scots had it rough coming here too” gets absolultey fucked right out the water as being absolutely abhorrent and despicable. It is depicted as the vile and evil blight against humanity that it is, and Oliver makes no attempt to hide his horror, rage and dismay when dealing with certain interviewees, though he does remain comendably calm and doesn’t just haul off and punch the guy, even when you can tell he really wants to.
So yeah. There’s some links and details for y’all.
Hi Joy. I can add to this, if you’d like to share it with your followers.
I’m a Scottish historian and folklorist, but I work primarily in folklore now. I have a lot of thoughts about this topic. Because it is currently the primary topic that folklorists are discussing, especially those who specialise in Scottish, Irish, or Scandinavian folklore.
I first became aware of the issue in the early 2000s, when neoNazis were appropriating any type of ‘Celtic’ (a problematic word, but it will do for now) festival or celebration. They were also approaching people at the Highland Games in the USA, assuming that anyone proud of their Scottish heritage was only a short distance away from interest in ‘white pride’.
Today, it has become such an extreme problem that folklorists discuss it. The people who approach us who claim interest in these topics could very easily be neoNazis and often are. This means we tend to look with suspicion at anyone who is a little too deeply invested already, or is wearing jewelry/has tattoos/etc. of various symbols - including things like Thor’s hammer, I’m sorry to say, for all you Marvel fans out there. Celtic symbols of any kind are worthy of suspicion, particularly crosses or triquetra (sorry, Charmed fans). These are often dogwhistles, and folklorists discuss the need to be extremely cautious now compared to even ten years ago.
All that said, the other problem is that Scotland and Ireland have long suffered from Othering - romanticising their realities. When your ‘identity’ as an American ‘Scottish’ or ‘Irish’ person makes you want to believe that this means anything about your personality or your family to the detriment of the people actually living and working in the country today, it’s a problem. ‘I drink a lot/have to drink a lot because I’m Scotttish!’ is one I’ve heard a few times. These are real, live people, with real lives, who don’t act like one thing or another. There’s nothing inherently noble about being Scottish, Irish, Scandinavian, etc.
I realise the media is invested in all this romanticisation, too. Whether it’s the ‘Scottish people are like, 1 inch away from raping people’ of Outlander (inaccurate both historically and currently, in fact I’d argue Outlander is the least-historically accurate of all media I’m aware of regarding Scotland), or the complete insanity of Braveheart, or insert other media here, it’s an issue for the people living in that country. There are entire tours that avoid Glasgow, for example, because the city is so much…just a modern city. I worked with some guys from Visit Scotland who had taken my folklore course, and they told me ‘Glasgow doesn’t sell’. Because Glasgow isn’t fantasy-Scotland. When people become tourist attractions to overlay a fantasy on, ignoring their lived realities, it’s a real issue.
A while ago, a friend of mine asked me to vet another folklorist for her. This friend of mine is pagan. I have many pagan friends, some of whom are witches. When I told her these things, she got absolutely furious with me, claiming well obviously not all folklorists are talking about it because he’s not! No, we’re talking about it to each other because of how dangerous the proliferation of neoNazis has become, and that includes paganism and witchcraft. If you find yourself getting that defensive about these topics, it’s time to take a step back and wonder why you are invested to the point of obsession.
We’re not saying that everybody who is pagan, or into witchcraft, or into Scottish/Irish/Scandinavian heritage is a neoNazi, but to be aware of those who are. And of how your interest will look to outsiders, especially those of us who have been scholars of the subject for a very long time.
Another problem is when people are confronted with historical facts that do not gel with their presupposed ideas about what Scotland or Ireland was like. People want it to be magical so badly that when they find out the actual religious heritage of these nations they get very upset or refuse to believe it. Either you like and are interested in these places despite what they can do for you, and despite what you find out about them, or you aren’t interested in them at all - you’re interested in a prop for your personal fantasy. Again, these are real places with real people whose lived experiences don’t need to agree with your preconceived notions of them.
I’m going to finish this by agreeing completely that Scottish people in Scotland also need to recognise that they aren’t morally pure just because they’re Scottish, but this is more about Brexit, the independence movement, and immigration. Yes, Scottish people were treated badly, but they also treated others and each other badly. Arguably the worst incident in all of Scottish history was the second Clearances, and that was Scottish people doing it to each other.
To conclude: Scottish history and culture is fascinating. I know this because it’s my job. However, the intense investment people have in ‘things Celtic’ can be a dangerous thing.
Thank you![[profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
caledoniaseries you’re as spot on as ever. And the paganism is a good point too. Whenever I mention my faith, or lack thereof given I’m secular, in passing or someone brings it up, I invariably get an influx of new followers who ascribe to a particularly neo-Celtic brand of nonsense. They will test the waters by trying to get my opinion on several things, usually pertaining to “traditional values” and “our shared heritage”.
Invariably they turn out to be exclusionists with delusions of personal magic powers that “link” them to my homeland, which they dare to turn into their egotistical warped fantasy of white supremacy and mystic woo.
So like sorry if I’m cagey as fuck if all you want to do is ask innocent questions about my personal beliefs, but this is the flip side of what I’m dealing with on a fairly regular basis and it is insidious.
And just in case you’re one of those new followers, let me save you the trouble of testing the waters, and allow me to formally invite you to choke.
thebibliosphere:
caledoniaseries:
thebibliosphere:
Hey gang, for those of you who reached out wanting to know more about the Scottish historian who did the deep dive into how Scottish identity got co-opted by the KKK and why a lot of things like “Scottish Pride” days are actually racist rallies in the USA, the name of the full documentary is “Who Put The Klan Into Ku Klux Klan” with Neil Oliver.
If you’ve got Amazon Prime it’s available on Prime Video. It’s also available to rent on YT for what looks like $1.99, though I am sure those of you who are more resourceful than I am might be able to find it elsewhere for the low low price of free.
Fair warning, it does deal with the events of the Charleston church shooting, and Neil also talks with some members of the church which is quite an emotional and heartbreaking moment. It also contains imagery featuring the KKK which can be disturbing. There is absolutely zero glorification of the Klan or anyone associated with them, past or present and any sort of “oh but the Scots had it rough coming here too” gets absolultey fucked right out the water as being absolutely abhorrent and despicable. It is depicted as the vile and evil blight against humanity that it is, and Oliver makes no attempt to hide his horror, rage and dismay when dealing with certain interviewees, though he does remain comendably calm and doesn’t just haul off and punch the guy, even when you can tell he really wants to.
So yeah. There’s some links and details for y’all.
Hi Joy. I can add to this, if you’d like to share it with your followers.
I’m a Scottish historian and folklorist, but I work primarily in folklore now. I have a lot of thoughts about this topic. Because it is currently the primary topic that folklorists are discussing, especially those who specialise in Scottish, Irish, or Scandinavian folklore.
I first became aware of the issue in the early 2000s, when neoNazis were appropriating any type of ‘Celtic’ (a problematic word, but it will do for now) festival or celebration. They were also approaching people at the Highland Games in the USA, assuming that anyone proud of their Scottish heritage was only a short distance away from interest in ‘white pride’.
Today, it has become such an extreme problem that folklorists discuss it. The people who approach us who claim interest in these topics could very easily be neoNazis and often are. This means we tend to look with suspicion at anyone who is a little too deeply invested already, or is wearing jewelry/has tattoos/etc. of various symbols - including things like Thor’s hammer, I’m sorry to say, for all you Marvel fans out there. Celtic symbols of any kind are worthy of suspicion, particularly crosses or triquetra (sorry, Charmed fans). These are often dogwhistles, and folklorists discuss the need to be extremely cautious now compared to even ten years ago.
All that said, the other problem is that Scotland and Ireland have long suffered from Othering - romanticising their realities. When your ‘identity’ as an American ‘Scottish’ or ‘Irish’ person makes you want to believe that this means anything about your personality or your family to the detriment of the people actually living and working in the country today, it’s a problem. ‘I drink a lot/have to drink a lot because I’m Scotttish!’ is one I’ve heard a few times. These are real, live people, with real lives, who don’t act like one thing or another. There’s nothing inherently noble about being Scottish, Irish, Scandinavian, etc.
I realise the media is invested in all this romanticisation, too. Whether it’s the ‘Scottish people are like, 1 inch away from raping people’ of Outlander (inaccurate both historically and currently, in fact I’d argue Outlander is the least-historically accurate of all media I’m aware of regarding Scotland), or the complete insanity of Braveheart, or insert other media here, it’s an issue for the people living in that country. There are entire tours that avoid Glasgow, for example, because the city is so much…just a modern city. I worked with some guys from Visit Scotland who had taken my folklore course, and they told me ‘Glasgow doesn’t sell’. Because Glasgow isn’t fantasy-Scotland. When people become tourist attractions to overlay a fantasy on, ignoring their lived realities, it’s a real issue.
A while ago, a friend of mine asked me to vet another folklorist for her. This friend of mine is pagan. I have many pagan friends, some of whom are witches. When I told her these things, she got absolutely furious with me, claiming well obviously not all folklorists are talking about it because he’s not! No, we’re talking about it to each other because of how dangerous the proliferation of neoNazis has become, and that includes paganism and witchcraft. If you find yourself getting that defensive about these topics, it’s time to take a step back and wonder why you are invested to the point of obsession.
We’re not saying that everybody who is pagan, or into witchcraft, or into Scottish/Irish/Scandinavian heritage is a neoNazi, but to be aware of those who are. And of how your interest will look to outsiders, especially those of us who have been scholars of the subject for a very long time.
Another problem is when people are confronted with historical facts that do not gel with their presupposed ideas about what Scotland or Ireland was like. People want it to be magical so badly that when they find out the actual religious heritage of these nations they get very upset or refuse to believe it. Either you like and are interested in these places despite what they can do for you, and despite what you find out about them, or you aren’t interested in them at all - you’re interested in a prop for your personal fantasy. Again, these are real places with real people whose lived experiences don’t need to agree with your preconceived notions of them.
I’m going to finish this by agreeing completely that Scottish people in Scotland also need to recognise that they aren’t morally pure just because they’re Scottish, but this is more about Brexit, the independence movement, and immigration. Yes, Scottish people were treated badly, but they also treated others and each other badly. Arguably the worst incident in all of Scottish history was the second Clearances, and that was Scottish people doing it to each other.
To conclude: Scottish history and culture is fascinating. I know this because it’s my job. However, the intense investment people have in ‘things Celtic’ can be a dangerous thing.
Thank you
caledoniaseries you’re as spot on as ever. And the paganism is a good point too. Whenever I mention my faith, or lack thereof given I’m secular, in passing or someone brings it up, I invariably get an influx of new followers who ascribe to a particularly neo-Celtic brand of nonsense. They will test the waters by trying to get my opinion on several things, usually pertaining to “traditional values” and “our shared heritage”.Invariably they turn out to be exclusionists with delusions of personal magic powers that “link” them to my homeland, which they dare to turn into their egotistical warped fantasy of white supremacy and mystic woo.
So like sorry if I’m cagey as fuck if all you want to do is ask innocent questions about my personal beliefs, but this is the flip side of what I’m dealing with on a fairly regular basis and it is insidious.
And just in case you’re one of those new followers, let me save you the trouble of testing the waters, and allow me to formally invite you to choke.
