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dragonlady7via http://ift.tt/1Nxy4zl:
millicentthecat:
jediistorm:
millicentthecat:
lesbianrey:
“kyle was brainwashed by snoke!! thats why he murders people!!” hey remember how finn aka fn-2187 was indoctrinated for his entire life but the second he was supposed to kill people in cold blood, he realized it was wrong and then immediately ditched the first order? but sure, protect kyle tho….
One of the first things FN-2187 does after he breaks his conditioning is kill people. Then, over the course of several days, he kills more people. Then he throws an unarmed prisoner into a trash compactor. Then he attempts to kill another person, and fails.
Finn did not, at any point in TFA, “realize that killing people is wrong.”
Regardless, I do believe that he’s worthy of empathy and protection.
….all those kills were done out of self-defense. han solo was the one who suggested putting phasma in the trash compactor because he knew that if she was let go that would have alerted everyone on the base about what they were doing and how they were trying to stop the first order from decimating more planets with their weapon. even in the village you barely see finn shoot anyone because the first time we see him he went directly to his friend who got shot - he was the only one of the storm troopers to not fire his weapon - and the deleted scene also shows that he let a villager go instead of shooting her.
finn has always realized killing people is wrong but he only kills people when they were shooting or trying to kill him first.
Well. I didn’t intend for this post to turn into serious meta, but here it goes.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don’t believe self defense was Finn’s immediate motivation for killing most of the people he killed.
The first time Finn uses deadly force - in the TIE hangar, on the Finalizer - I do believe that was self defense. But it was also pre-meditated. Finn would’ve had to realize that, at some point, Stormtroopers would shoot at him, since he was planning on stealing a TIE Fighter. You don’t steal a military tank without expecting to be pursued and to use deadly force–even if you’re using it to break out of jail. Finn would’ve known there were likely to be casualties of his escape mission; likely he decided, before even approaching Poe, that he would use deadly force to escape if necessary. He decided that the casualties–the people he might kill–their lives were worth less than his goal. At the moment he made that choice, the choice to kill, Finn was defending his political and religious values. Not his life.
Much like when Kylo decided the people of Tuanul were worth less than his goal.
When the First Order arrives on Takodana, Finn has a lot of options. He could hide or flee - he’s even made some arrangements with pirate-bandits for safe passage to the Outer Rim. However, he makes no effort to hide, or to flee, or to parley, because he is not thinking of himself. He’s thinking of Rey. He wants to get to Rey because he is feeling FEAR and ANGER and PASSION. He goes STRAIGHT for deadly Force, choosing to kill instead of incapacitate. In this scene he is NOT motivated by self defense. He is motivated by his desire to protect Rey - although, she has not asked for his protection, and she does not ultimately need it. It’s important to acknowledge that his impetus to free her comes exclusively from his own designs.
Much like Kylo’s abduction of Rey comes from his own designs.
As for Starkiller Base…Finn did not need to go there. Not for himself; not for self-defense. He did not need to go, with Han Solo, a bag of explosives, and a heavily armed wookie, to someone elses’ base, and help blow the thing up. No. He went for Rey. He cares about her. He wants to help her.
Much like Kylo cares about and wants to help Snoke. Also, the ghost of Darth Vader.
I think your theory about Phasma is an interesting one, if only to illustrate how torturing someone who is -of no immediate danger- to you (in order to have better success on an OFFENSIVE mission) could be reframed as self-defense. However, I don’t think there’s any evidence to support what you’re saying. For one thing, surely, there is a more efficient way to incapacitate a prisoner than to throw them in a trash compactor. "Trash compactor" was chosen because it’s a throwback to a previous movie, where it represented a cruel and terrifying death. Additionally, just going off dialogue and facial expression, I think Finn found a clear and obvious personal satisfaction in doing Phasma harm. Perhaps we could introduce the word “vengeance” to the conversation.
Probably the same sort of “vengeance” Kylo longs for when he looks at the man who betrayed his cause, stormed his base, led his estranged father to a confrontation, planted explosives, freed a prisoner of war, and also, weirdly, is carrying a priceless, stolen family heirloom…
The only other time Finn might have used deadly Force that can really be categorized as self defense was when Han and Chewie were boarding the Falcon and Finn suggested flooding the ship with gas. The Falcon was caught in a tractor beam and pulled into a cargo bay; anyone boarding was an invader.
Much like Han Solo was an invader at Starkiller Base. When Kylo killed him.
In summary: I don’t think Finn killed all the people he killed out of self defense. I also don’t think that it matters. I think all the Star Warriors deserve empathy and protection, regardless of how many people they kill, and regardless of why. I didn’t write this post to make a value judgment–to talk about who’s good or who’s bad. Just to show that, from their respective POVs, Finn and Kylo are motivated by similar emotions and drives. They both believe they’re only hurting people who’ve hurt them first (and might hurt them again soon.) While we don’t have a really good canonical handle on Kylo’s motivations yet (why does he want the map? why does he want to kill Luke Skywalker?) my personal interpretation is that he’s fueled by the same thing Finn is:
he woke up, one day, on a battlefield - realizing that Luke was training him to be a Jedi Knight, a soldier -and he defected. He decided he wanted to chose his side. Because the side he was on, to begin with…they were trying to erase him.
I don’t believe Snoke seduced Ben Solo any more than Poe seduced Finn (both are arguable, but…staying focused.) I think Ben sought the Dark Side - because the Light Side was painful for him - and Snoke gave him a way out and a new name. Snoke validated his individual identity.
Finn and Kylo, as I see it, are positioned perfectly to understand each other, because they are incredibly alike. Their stories are alike.
@freysdottir would want me to end this post with lines from the code of the Sith:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
millicentthecat:
jediistorm:
millicentthecat:
lesbianrey:
“kyle was brainwashed by snoke!! thats why he murders people!!” hey remember how finn aka fn-2187 was indoctrinated for his entire life but the second he was supposed to kill people in cold blood, he realized it was wrong and then immediately ditched the first order? but sure, protect kyle tho….
One of the first things FN-2187 does after he breaks his conditioning is kill people. Then, over the course of several days, he kills more people. Then he throws an unarmed prisoner into a trash compactor. Then he attempts to kill another person, and fails.
Finn did not, at any point in TFA, “realize that killing people is wrong.”
Regardless, I do believe that he’s worthy of empathy and protection.
….all those kills were done out of self-defense. han solo was the one who suggested putting phasma in the trash compactor because he knew that if she was let go that would have alerted everyone on the base about what they were doing and how they were trying to stop the first order from decimating more planets with their weapon. even in the village you barely see finn shoot anyone because the first time we see him he went directly to his friend who got shot - he was the only one of the storm troopers to not fire his weapon - and the deleted scene also shows that he let a villager go instead of shooting her.
finn has always realized killing people is wrong but he only kills people when they were shooting or trying to kill him first.
Well. I didn’t intend for this post to turn into serious meta, but here it goes.
Respectfully, I disagree. I don’t believe self defense was Finn’s immediate motivation for killing most of the people he killed.
The first time Finn uses deadly force - in the TIE hangar, on the Finalizer - I do believe that was self defense. But it was also pre-meditated. Finn would’ve had to realize that, at some point, Stormtroopers would shoot at him, since he was planning on stealing a TIE Fighter. You don’t steal a military tank without expecting to be pursued and to use deadly force–even if you’re using it to break out of jail. Finn would’ve known there were likely to be casualties of his escape mission; likely he decided, before even approaching Poe, that he would use deadly force to escape if necessary. He decided that the casualties–the people he might kill–their lives were worth less than his goal. At the moment he made that choice, the choice to kill, Finn was defending his political and religious values. Not his life.
Much like when Kylo decided the people of Tuanul were worth less than his goal.
When the First Order arrives on Takodana, Finn has a lot of options. He could hide or flee - he’s even made some arrangements with pirate-bandits for safe passage to the Outer Rim. However, he makes no effort to hide, or to flee, or to parley, because he is not thinking of himself. He’s thinking of Rey. He wants to get to Rey because he is feeling FEAR and ANGER and PASSION. He goes STRAIGHT for deadly Force, choosing to kill instead of incapacitate. In this scene he is NOT motivated by self defense. He is motivated by his desire to protect Rey - although, she has not asked for his protection, and she does not ultimately need it. It’s important to acknowledge that his impetus to free her comes exclusively from his own designs.
Much like Kylo’s abduction of Rey comes from his own designs.
As for Starkiller Base…Finn did not need to go there. Not for himself; not for self-defense. He did not need to go, with Han Solo, a bag of explosives, and a heavily armed wookie, to someone elses’ base, and help blow the thing up. No. He went for Rey. He cares about her. He wants to help her.
Much like Kylo cares about and wants to help Snoke. Also, the ghost of Darth Vader.
I think your theory about Phasma is an interesting one, if only to illustrate how torturing someone who is -of no immediate danger- to you (in order to have better success on an OFFENSIVE mission) could be reframed as self-defense. However, I don’t think there’s any evidence to support what you’re saying. For one thing, surely, there is a more efficient way to incapacitate a prisoner than to throw them in a trash compactor. "Trash compactor" was chosen because it’s a throwback to a previous movie, where it represented a cruel and terrifying death. Additionally, just going off dialogue and facial expression, I think Finn found a clear and obvious personal satisfaction in doing Phasma harm. Perhaps we could introduce the word “vengeance” to the conversation.
Probably the same sort of “vengeance” Kylo longs for when he looks at the man who betrayed his cause, stormed his base, led his estranged father to a confrontation, planted explosives, freed a prisoner of war, and also, weirdly, is carrying a priceless, stolen family heirloom…
The only other time Finn might have used deadly Force that can really be categorized as self defense was when Han and Chewie were boarding the Falcon and Finn suggested flooding the ship with gas. The Falcon was caught in a tractor beam and pulled into a cargo bay; anyone boarding was an invader.
Much like Han Solo was an invader at Starkiller Base. When Kylo killed him.
In summary: I don’t think Finn killed all the people he killed out of self defense. I also don’t think that it matters. I think all the Star Warriors deserve empathy and protection, regardless of how many people they kill, and regardless of why. I didn’t write this post to make a value judgment–to talk about who’s good or who’s bad. Just to show that, from their respective POVs, Finn and Kylo are motivated by similar emotions and drives. They both believe they’re only hurting people who’ve hurt them first (and might hurt them again soon.) While we don’t have a really good canonical handle on Kylo’s motivations yet (why does he want the map? why does he want to kill Luke Skywalker?) my personal interpretation is that he’s fueled by the same thing Finn is:
he woke up, one day, on a battlefield - realizing that Luke was training him to be a Jedi Knight, a soldier -and he defected. He decided he wanted to chose his side. Because the side he was on, to begin with…they were trying to erase him.
I don’t believe Snoke seduced Ben Solo any more than Poe seduced Finn (both are arguable, but…staying focused.) I think Ben sought the Dark Side - because the Light Side was painful for him - and Snoke gave him a way out and a new name. Snoke validated his individual identity.
Finn and Kylo, as I see it, are positioned perfectly to understand each other, because they are incredibly alike. Their stories are alike.
@freysdottir would want me to end this post with lines from the code of the Sith:
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
