weddings

[dragonlady7]

It is 10 am and I just got out of bed, which beats my previous record for sleeping in by a good two hours. I woke this morning at six, and sort of laughed at the idea that I'd do something so foolish as get out of bed. Ha ha ha.

I am not hung-over-- no, I was the sober driver. I am just unaccountably weary. And that's the thing about weddings. They're just so tiring. By the end of the night the bride was ready to kill people, and I just can't imagine how tired out and frazzled she must've been.

Z shaved off his beard for the wedding. The bride's step-grandfather commented that he didn't recognize him without it, and they joked about beards a little while: "Well, it's your face, right?" the old man said. "Do what you want!"
"But it's not his pictures," I pointed out. "It's her wedding photos." And I pointed at the bride.
Which was true. And cute as Z's beard was, he looked a great deal more respectable without it.

He looked a bit like Lurch in his tux, just because the jacket was very long and not particularly fitted. I went to town on the vest with some safety pins because he looked like he was wearing a burka.

All in all it was a lovely wedding, and I am sure the lovely couple will be happy for many years to come.
It happened to be pretty much the exact opposite of the kind of wedding I like, but only because it was so perfectly done as the type of wedding it was. And I didn't know anyone there except the bride and groom, the best man, one of the bridesmaids, and Z. So, a little challenging. I managed to have fun, and also, Z ACTUALLY DANCED WITH ME, which is a milestone for me. (I have never successfully danced with a boy before, not a boy I liked anyway.) So I felt very special, and people loved my dress, and I even got a compliment on my hair, which was in a different style.

I just pulled all the photos off my camera and I have not one of the reception, not one of me, not one clear one of Z, so we're going to have to wait to see if anybody else does. I know my photo was taken several times, so, we'll just hang on and wait.

And now, my rant about marriage and weddings. If you're interested in this topic, there is a related interesting discussion going on over at jennyo's blog. I have had her friended a while, and I keep thinking, "why is she still on here?" because mostly she talks about fandoms I don't follow, but then she'll start a discussion like this and I'll say, "Oh right."
Part 1: Americans are lonely. Maybe marriage doesn't work for everyone!
Part 2: That Does Not Persuade Me That Heterosexual Companionate Marriage Is The Best Of All Possible Choices
Which has been interesting to read. I do recall not one but several times throughout my late adolescence when I was invited to form communes with various people, including one who had a house on the Orkney Islands where he was going to farm llamas. The problem being, of course, that I just can't get along that well for that long with that many people. Z and I is a small miracle.

But anyway. Less theoretical, more personal, my own feelings on marriage.

Used to be that marriage was the only way you could 1) get laid, 2) get out of your mom's house, and 3) have a family. Well, that's the myth. Reality is that people have always done all kinds of things; just go back and read your local censuses of the past. There have always been odd family structures, and people who didn't need marriage.
Nowadays, what with information and communications being what they are, we are widely aware of many, many people, in fact the majority of people, who have found other ways to 1) get laid, 2) get out of their mom's houses, and 3) have families.
Including me, for the first two.

Which leaves #3.

So what it amounts to for me is that #3 is the only reason remaining for me to get married. And at this point, it seems downright silly for me to spend multiple tens of thousands of dollars to marry the person I'm already living with, just for things to continue on as they are.

What marriage comes down to is involving the law in your living situation. If you have a simple living situation, as I do, the law cannot help you: whether the state is involved in my affairs or not, the result would still be the same, should my current relationship come to an end: a messy tangle of who actually owns what, and probable acrimonious debate. I have been thinking about that a little because two of Z's coworkers just suddenly and catastrophically realized they had mutual feelings-- very soon after each of them had just moved in with their longtime significant others. And it's a messy and horrid situation for everyone, because everyone's feelings are hurt and the two have nowhere to sleep. But the law is not involved-- only the leases they signed.

I don't need lawyers in that situation. I don't need lawyers to tell me that it's ok to live with Z or not. I really don't need lawyers because neither of us has that much money. It's a simple enough situation that it isn't important.

So, the basic rule is, you need marriage when you think your life is going to be complex enough that the law should be involved. Why? Insurance, pensions, tax breaks, and the like become important and complicated enough that the law needs to be involved. Ditto for investments: buying a house where you both will live ought to be something you do together. And the most compelling and most complex case is children: Having the law involved when you reproduce makes things smoother, easier, and ensures that at the least there's one thing the kids won't get made fun of for, and at worst the state at least knows whose they are.


In more personal terms, my life is currently in a bit of a holding pattern, and I know that, but it is my own fault as well as my own choice. I am working hard at a meaningless job, saving up lots of money, and trying to finish and publish a novel because I want to be a writer and a writer who hasn't published anything is kind of not really a writer. Right? Right. So at this moment, the law really doesn't need to be involved in my life. I'm happy enough doing what I do where I am with who I am, because I'm not going anywhere. My living expenses are very minimal, everything I do is minimal, but that's all right because ostensibly I'm building up towards something.
But I'm not buying a house, not having kids, not facing any major life choices except the career change I'm trying to build towards. The only reason for me to try to convince Z that he needs to marry me is that my peers expect it (and also it'd be a fun party).
Which really isn't all that compelling.

Maybe once I have a novel published, or have realized that I am not cut out to be a commercial writer. Then, I figure, I will re-evaluate. The only hard boundary I'm facing is my biological clock, of course: I can't expect to have kids after about 40, and I'd like to start trying a hell of a lot earlier than that. I really do think I want kids, but of course I haven't made a final decision on that. Maybe I'll decide no.
But I figure, once I know for sure who I am, then I'm going to give this whole getting-married thing a lot more thought. And if Z is still as he is now, where he thinks it's irrelevant to his life, well then, he may be in trouble. But at the moment, I don't really think we need to debate this.

Comments

[jennnlee.livejournal.com]

My thoughts, even though you didn't really ask for them.

Morgan and I met as roommates in 1994. We clicked immediately, and without going too far into TMI-land, it was apparent pretty damn quick that we didn't need two bedrooms in that apartment. In fact, he stuck his great-grandmother's diamond ring on my finger three months after we met. We lived together for about two years before we actually got married. And I remember wondering, too, if we really needed to get married. We were already living together; we even had a joint checking account. So other than being able to go on the same insurance (and me getting a last name I could spell to people over the phone), what was the point?

Now that I'm looking at our tenth anniversary this August, here's what the point is to me. We're a Family. We're not two people living together, with my family and life over here and his family and life over there. Even without kids (and it's looking like 95% that we won't have them), he's my family. I'm his family. It's a level of permanence that erases that holding pattern. Not a ball and chain so much as a security blanket. With the marriage comes a Commitment. To each other, and to that thing you vowed to each other.

Marriage is a partnership, it's something you do together. We had a time a few years back when things were going badly. We didn't talk, we didn't like each other much. So we (actually he) called a time out, we went out to dinner, and hammered it out. Do we want this marriage? We determined that yes, we do. So everything else comes second.

I've got a good guy. I really do. He loves me as much as I love him, and he wants this marriage as much as I do. No, it's not easy. It's not always fun. Some of the time you're hammering out budgets and futures, and deciding where to move based on who got the better job offer (or something).

But the best thing about it, I think, is that there really is a Me and You Vs. The World thing, which is a great feeling. It's a comfort.

(And he just wandered in here, and I told him what I was writing. His opinion: "I don't think it's for everybody. It is for us, though." And now he's taking me out for waffles, so gotta go...)

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

But the thing is, if, in your argument, you substitute the word "relationship" for "marriage", then you have my situation exactly. In your case, given the financial ups and downs and all that, what with insurance and not and who's working and who isn't, it's probably a hell of a lot easier to be married. Even my situation only works because Z is such an idiot he doesn't care if he has health insurance. (I've given up trying to worry about him. I can't. But if we were married, I could get him insurance for, like, a dollar. But I can't talk him into it.)

It's insurance and it's social acceptance. Being able to say, "my husband", sounds a lot better than "boyfriend"-- I admit I occasionally do just say husband, or "mother-in-law" rather than "boyfriend's mom", to strangers-- just as a homosexual friend used to refer to his significant other as his "girlfriend" just to streamline conversations with people who couldn't care less about the details. But that only works on people you won't be seeing again.

But I don't think that being married, in this day and age, really necessarily means all that much in terms of commitment. Nothing to do with your case, of course, but I have known a lot of people whose married relationships were far less permanent and secure than my unmarried one. And so the piece of paper itself doesn't seem all that important to me (although I admit the ring would be nice just, again, as a conversation-streamliner-- nothing like a bling-bedecked left hand to fend off the hopeful crazies) to obtain that Us vs. The World feeling. I think Z and I might well feel closer if we were married--- but, I might add here, my point is not that we don't need to be, but more that I don't need to be That Girl who obsesses about it. He hasn't asked, you see. This essay is, in part, me insisting that I Don't Care, because, really, I don't need to. It's only society telling me I ought to. But I don't have anything more to gain from marrying him than he does-- in fact, I have less to gain by it, as I have a greater income. Society tells me that I, a late-twentysomething woman, need to be pressuring my long-term boyfriend into marriage. And I, I don't think I do. If he's not interested, I'm not pressing it. Until I feel a legitimate (i.e. internal, i.e. stated above) reason to do so. And at that point, then it'll make sense for me to leave him if he says no. If I do so now, I'm just ruining a good thing and pretty much pointlessly making an ass of myself because the sitcoms and DeBeers commercials insist I do.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

I think the point that both of you are dancing around here (or at least the one that I noticed) is this: If you are committed to each other, you are probably best off to get married, just for the easing of cultural and legal expectations. But if one partner has to be bullied into it, then it probably was not a good idea.

I believe that marriage is Not for having children, Not for the insurance and other financial benefit, but rather to formally announce to the world, and to each other, that you are each the other's primary concern. It's a relationship first, maybe it later becomes parenting.

[jennnlee.livejournal.com]

to formally announce to the world, and to each other, that you are each the other's primary concern.

You know, that's a really good point, and one I will agree with wholeheartedly.

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

But the whole idea of a wedding is to make a big production and sing and dance and point out that These Two Are Together Wows, which, I admit, makes me tired and sick. Because... we are together. And I can see that people are making a point of making The Relationship into a bigger deal-- but to tell you the truth, I'm not ready for that. I don't want to sing and dance and proclaim that i am His and He is Mine because oh jeez, I have so much other stuff to do, and we've always been so low-key. Making a production out of it isn't something either of us is ready to do, I don't think. Our lives are inextricably intertwined, but quietly.


No, it's not that I'd have to bully him into it, it's that I'd have to make this into a big production. If marriage is all about the big production, then it's really not for me either. I'm not a big production kind of girl, and certainly am not interested in making my sex/home life a big public scene.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

I really should expand on this a little bit. One, when I said 'announce' I don't mean as in a big production; I mean the marriage certificate. Two, while I used the traditional definition in that post, usually when I say 'marriage' I mean an emotional committment, not a ceremony. I consider my son married even though there is no piece of paper. They've been together over 10 years. It's just that most people feel freer to walk away if they haven't done the legal stuff. And Marriage - with or without the paper - should mean, "I am putting your interests first, frequently even ahead of my own; I am considering your viewpoint in every aspect of my life; I will be true to you sexually; I believe in you, love you, respect and admire you."

As long as you don't have chilren, I don't see any big deal anymore about legalizing it, except the c. $500 it saves on income taxes. When there are children, I do believe it is better for the child to be seen as the offspring of a formally committed couple.

But if you *want* to be married, why does it have to be a big production? (Other than the fact that you both have families who would try to push you into that.)

[jennnlee.livejournal.com]

The only other thing I'll point out is something I thought of on our way for waffles yesterday. Your definition of "home" is where your parents live. I've seen you more than once talk about going "home" to see them. That to me implies that, maybe just subconsciously, that you don't consider where you are right now "home." A sense of impermance, of not being settled.

Home for me is my husband and pets. My parents' house is just that. It's the place I grew up. But it hasn't been home in almost twelve years.

This essay is, in part, me insisting that I Don't Care

Really? I've seen more than one indication in your journal as of late that this isn't the case. But if you really don't, hey, that's cool. And believe me, I know about bucking society's norms. Society really really wants us to have kids, and can't understand why we don't want to, and how we can NOT want to but still like other people's kids at the same time.

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

My definition of Home is Melrose because of a lot of things. One is that I don't have any friends in Buffalo besides Z. Another is that I don't have a job here that I like. I have no ties to Buffalo, except Z. We've relocated together twice, and I have absolutely no business in Buffalo, except for him. Just as I had no business in Jersey, and he had no business in Westchester.

> isn't the case

Yes, which is why I decided to sit down and reason it out. Do I want to let society pressure me into thinking that The Only Way To Be is married? Or do I want to think it out for myself and determine whether that's really what I want?
By the comments I'm getting on this entry, apparently my reasoning's wrong, but I still think that there's little point making a big production right now. I'm not just sticking my fingers in my ears and saying "Boys are icky, boys are icky." I'm waking up, looking around, and saying, "You know, dropping hints about a ring is very not me and I don't think I'll be doing it."

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think what I am seeing here is just people with different personalities and different ways of thinking.

Some people find symbols/'official' statements psychologically important. Others don't, so much. And different mental states come over people at different times, not always coinciding with the 'official' moments. Also, not everyone has a very cosy subconscious idea of marriage--some people think of 'marriage' as the thing that is followed by 'divorce,' and their relationships might actually worsen when they tie the knot.

Of course, I am not married myself, so I am not an expert. However, I certainly notice *many* of my married friends referring to their parents' house as 'home', while my 'home' is definitely my rented apartment, empty of partners, kids, cats and dogs.

[jennnlee.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's kind of silly to say your reasoning is wrong, and I don't know if anyone is doing that. You asked what the point was of marriage, and people have been telling you their perspectives, as well as pointing out an observation or two based on reading your journal.

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

I didn't ask what the point was of marriage, I explained what I thought the point was of marriage. I appreciate people telling me what they think the point of marriage is, but it's hard not to feel defensive when people are disagreeing with me and questioning whether I really believe the things I say I do. Certainly people are entitled to their opinions, but the sheer weight of public opinion on this topic makes it a rather touchy subject, and obviously I was wrong to think that discussing my own personal take on it would avoid controversy.

[jennnlee.livejournal.com]

Sorry. You said that you didn't see the point of marriage since you were already cohabitating. Since I've been there and I did see a difference on the other side, I offered a perspective. Obviously I shouldn't have. Won't happen again.

[tehta.livejournal.com]

But at the moment, I don't really think we need to debate this.

I think I agree. Especially since you are already shacked up, and, as you say, marriage would not change anything.

And at this point, it seems downright silly for me to spend multiple tens of thousands of dollars to marry the person I'm already living with...

Although I think you should also remember that having a ridiculously wedding is another way of buying into societal pressure. Most of my friends married in grad school, and so had very cheap weddings by necessity, and, you know, they're just as married as other people.

[kkatowll.livejournal.com]

> cheap weddings

Heh. Trevor and I have long talked about what we'd do if we did actually get married, and we agree we'd hold a reception BEFORE the wedding, like for 12 hours beforehand, to see if we could exhaust everybody so that all the people we don't want to have there but couldn't avoid inviting wouldn't make it to the ceremony itself.

Then again, we're also not into the fancy party type thing...we were thinking, start with laser tag at midnight, then do bowling around 3 a.m., ceremony at dawn in one of the public parks. Pizza in the middle of the night, pancakes afterward at a park pavilion. Cheap, relatively speaking -- it would cost about $3,000.

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

Actually i think the ceremony is usually first because it wears out the people one doesnt really want at the reception... see, having more people at the ceremony is free, whereas having more at the reception is kind of expensive, like $30/plate expensive.


The other night I said to Z that it'd be awesome to have open mic night at the reception. Like, on the response card, you indicate your meal preference, and also what piece you will be performing, as well as how many microphones you will need and whether you will require special lighting or props. Wouldn't that rule? You could have karaoke, interpretive dance, jokes, monologues, dramatic readings, spoon-on-face-sticking feats-- everybody does their party trick!
I think it'd be awesome, anyway. I have a good mix of talented and shameless friends and family. Also I sort of don't dance.

And anyway receptions spend so much time in careful and deliberate public humiliation of the bride and groom that I'd really like to see the friends and family get theirs. Na ha!!

[tehta.livejournal.com]

Back when I was both less single and more outdoorsy I used to joke about having a hiking wedding up on some hill, possibly one that called for rockclimbing. That would get rid of most people...

Tardy as usual

[kittyc1978.livejournal.com]

Forgive my tardy entry into this convo...

Being married, and a Christian person at that...I'm a little personally biased. However, I am openminded toward the decisions of others.

Marriage is exactly what Jen said, anything that happens to me happens to Jer. It happens to US. The difference between Marriages and Relationships are simple. Marriage is a special thing. It takes a romance and makes it a life. Social pressures be damned, religious crap aside, it takes a feeling and translates it into an action. I think that is pretty incredible.

Re: Tardy as usual

[dragonlady7.livejournal.com]

But I think it's a very personal thing, and I personally still don't think that at this juncture in my life I would particularly benefit from changing my Relationship into a Marriage.